The Expectation of Spectacle: an Interview with Mike Nelson – 奇观的期待:对迈克纳尔逊的采访

We interviewed the British artist Mike Nelson on the occasion of his monumental intervention at the OGR in Turin; a large wooden structure, leads into the space, resembling a large billboard or the screen of a drive-in, once beyond it visitors find themselves inside a dimly lit environment where, amid pressed rubble, there are about twenty parked cars, covered with dust and in complete abandon. Different epochs and genres collide within the installation: a recent past rubs against an almost archaeological dimension (or perhaps a near future?), the rubble on the floor reeks of precariousness, an ambiguity between a recent demolition, an in-progress apocalypse whilst hinting to the potential of reconstruction, together creating an overwhelming tone of expectation and suspense.
我们采访了英国艺术家迈克·尼尔森,当时他在都灵的“食人魔”进行了一次具有纪念意义的干预活动。这是一个巨大的木结构,通向太空,就像一个巨大的广告牌或一个开车进去的屏幕,一旦超过它,游客就会发现自己置身于一个光线暗淡的环境中,在被压的碎石中,大约有20辆车停在那里。汽车,被灰尘覆盖,完全废弃。不同的时代和体裁在装置内发生了碰撞:最近的过去与几乎考古的层面(或者可能是不久的将来)发生了摩擦。地板上的碎石散发出不稳定的气息,在最近的一次拆迁中模糊了,在暗示重建潜力的同时,正在进行的天启,共同创造了一种压倒一切的期待和悬念。

Lara Morrell: I’d like to start by asking you about the connection between “Untitled” (intimate sculpture for a public space) 2013* and the brand new work “L’atteso”, which are placed at odds with each other upon entering the space. How do they relate in terms of time of production, scale and concept?
拉拉·莫雷尔:首先,我想问你关于“untilled”(公共空间的贴心雕塑)2013*与全新作品“l'atteso”之间的联系,这两个作品在进入空间时相互矛盾。它们在生产时间、规模和概念方面有何关联?

Mike Nelson: In a sense they are completely separate works, if there is any relationship at all I thought it would work quite well considering the Title ‘intimate sculpture for a public space’, which I made for space in Vancouver back in 2013 and I think somehow reflects the relationship about what is public and what is private is quite interesting in this specific space. The relationship of the scale between the individual of the single figure and the entirety of the installation behind this glass wall— the idea of the vitrine, perhaps it is a nudge to look at it in this sense, through a window and then the cars themselves as vitrines. An archaeology of the contemporary of the near past.
迈克·尼尔森:从某种意义上说,它们是完全独立的作品,如果有任何关系的话,我认为考虑到2013年我在温哥华为空间创作的标题“公共空间的亲密雕塑”,它们会很好地发挥作用,我认为某种程度上反映了公共空间和私人空间之间的关系。在这个特定的空间进行测试。单个人物和玻璃墙后面整个装置之间的比例关系——玻璃的概念,也许从这个意义上看是一种推动,通过一扇窗户,然后把汽车本身看作玻璃。近现代的考古学。

*a sleeping bag placed on the ground, enclosed in a shrine, in memory of a friend and collaborator, Erlend Williamson, artist and passionate climber, who died more than twenty years ago while climbing in the Scottish Highlands.
*一个睡袋放在地上,被装在神龛里,以纪念一位朋友和合作者,艺术家和热情的登山者Erlend Williamson,他20多年前在苏格兰高地登山时去世。

L.M.: How did the idea for the show come about? Did you come across any complications working in a space such as the OGR, both in terms of its scale and being a relatively new institution?
L.M.:这个节目的想法是怎么产生的?你是否遇到过在诸如食人魔这样的空间工作的任何复杂情况,无论是在规模上还是作为一个相对较新的机构?

M.N.: To be quite honest it was all a little complicated, there is a strange history to this exhibition which reflects the institution and how it works, the space I was originally given to work with was larger than this and this dividing vitrine wasn’t originally here, I was planning to build an elevated cast concrete road, at mid height level with road street lamps and crash barriers cast into it, so essentially a very dead pan, huge, minimal sculpture, that was what I was going forward with until the tragedy in Genova and then it looked exactly like the section of road which fell out, so obviously I didn’t want the work to read in relation to that, not just because it wasn’t my intent but I thought it could be deeply insensitive in regard to the people killed and their family and friends, so in August I had to somehow rethink how it was going to work in this space.
M.N.:说实话,这一切都有点复杂,这个展览有一段奇怪的历史,它反映了这个机构和它是如何运作的,我最初被给予工作的空间比这个大,而且这个分格玻璃原来不在这里,我正计划建造一条高高的混凝土道路,在中间高度W层。道路上的路灯和防撞栏都被扔进去了,基本上是一个非常死的盘子,巨大的,最小的雕塑,这就是我一直在做的事情,直到热那亚悲剧发生,然后它看起来就像是一段掉了出来的路,所以很明显我不想让作品读到与之相关的东西,不仅仅是因为它不是我的作品。但是我认为这对被杀的人和他们的家人和朋友可能是非常不敏感的,所以在8月份我不得不重新考虑在这个空间里如何工作。

I’d come to this point of thinking about about a cast concrete road through a Keinholz piece from the early 70s called Five Car Stud, which was shown quite recently in Milan*, and I always thought it was interesting they way it used cars as a vehicle of illumination and in a way it seemed to me that lighting in here was important and ultimately really problematic fundamentally, an awkward aspect within it so in the sense I went back to this idea,
我想到的是70年代早期的一块叫做“五车钉”的Keinholz建筑,是一条用混凝土浇注而成的路,最近在米兰展出过。我一直认为很有趣的是,他们把汽车用作照明工具,在某种程度上,我觉得这里的照明很重要,而且最终也是很重要的。从根本上说,这是一个非常棘手的问题,所以从某种意义上说,我回到了这个想法,

In terms of scale you have to take into account very practical considerations, how do you articulate a space like this and how do you articulate material and which makes an impact upon it and I think so often a space like this becomes in control of whatever is in it or it comes secondary in a sort of way, the work becomes secondary to the space. So I want back to the ideas of cars, as in way cars are becoming obsolete, at the point of obsoletion or the way they have been viewed through the twentieth century at least anyway…
就尺度而言,你必须考虑到非常实际的考虑,你是如何表达这样一个空间的,你是如何表达材料的,它会对材料产生影响,我认为像这样一个空间经常控制着它里面的任何东西,或者它以某种方式成为次要的,工作就成为次要的空间。所以我想回到汽车的概念,就像汽车正在变得过时,在过时的时候,或者至少在20世纪人们对汽车的看法…

L.M.: Tell me more about the car motif? Is there a nod to Turin and the automobile industry? Was there a particular criteria for the choice and epoch of car?
L.M.:告诉我更多关于汽车主题的信息?对都灵和汽车工业有什么看法吗?汽车的选择和时代是否有特定的标准?

M.N.: I wanted the cars to be as unremarkable as possible, I didn’t want anything desirable or beautiful or anything which represented anything too extreme or covetable, things on a certain level of obsolescence, teetering on the edge of usefulness, rather like the building we are in to a certain point or the hardcore on the floor. They are all from the late nineties and early 2000s except for the Pandas and the Porsche from the 80s and early 90s.

Regarding the association with Turin it is not something I would overly pursue, but I think its something that is taken as given, ultimately and in a sense it is what this space was originally used for in regards to mending trains, in a way, in Britain at any rate, the trains disappeared as road usage demand and the idea of the individual and ones freedom as supposed to communal means of transport disappeared so in away these obsolete redundant objects are somehow representative of the end of an epoch, and this building represents the end of another and the hardcore and the floor which ultimately is crushed buildings, I suppose there is some kind of dark irony to the preciousness with which this building is now treated, I couldn’t even stick a screw in the wall, the irony is that what is on the floor are probably buildings that are equally interesting and beautiful, all from a similar era crushed up and scattered, so I think that idea about the entropic and things breaking down, this constant cycle is suggested in that material of the hardcore and ultimately in the cars themselves.
M.N.:我希望汽车尽可能地不起眼,我不想要任何令人满意或美丽的东西,或任何代表极端或令人垂涎的东西,某种程度上的过时的东西,在有用的边缘徘徊,就像我们在某个点的建筑或地板上的核心。除了80年代和90年代初的大熊猫和保时捷,它们都是90年代末和2000年代初的。
关于与都灵的联系,我不会过分追求,但我认为这是我们所给予的东西,最终,在某种意义上,这是这个空间最初用于M的目的。在某种程度上,在英国,不管怎样,随着道路使用需求的消失,列车消失了,人们对于公共交通工具的自由和个人自由的观念也消失了,因此,这些过时的多余物体在某种程度上代表了一个时代的结束,而这座建筑代表了另一个时代的结束,而这座建筑代表着另一个时代的结束,以及核心和最终被粉碎的建筑的地板,我想这座建筑现在被对待的珍贵有某种黑暗的讽刺,我甚至不能在墙上钉一个螺丝,讽刺的是,地板上的可能是同样有趣和美丽的建筑,都是从一个相似的时代被粉碎的。散乱的,所以我认为关于熵和物质分解的想法,这个恒定的循环被建议在核心材料中,最终在汽车本身中。

L.M.:I know that you yourself physically build the work yourself, often putting yourself in the boots of a builder rather than that of an artist, how integral is this ‘hands on’ approach to the work?
L.M.:我知道,你自己亲自动手做这项工作,经常把自己放在建设者的靴子里,而不是艺术家的靴子里,这种“动手”的方法对这项工作有多重要?

M.N.: When I let go of the control of something it always goes terribly wrong! Getting people to get things done how you want them to look is not easy, it’s like when you have work done at home and most of the time it’s really bad. I mean you try getting someone to build something like this (he says as we walk under a nine metre high wooden structure which nods uncommittedly to either a drive in screen or billboard) and them getting them to build it how you want it! You won’t! The technical team here at OGR were shocked at how precise we were, it is a simple structure but that simplicity is quite complicated to work out, we spent a long time looking for the right kind of timber, originally I was going to use old timber but couldn’t find one that was also strong and straight enough to make a structure this big, it is over nine metres high.
M.N.:当我放弃对某件事的控制时,它总是出了大问题!让人们按照自己的意愿完成工作并不容易,就像你在家里完成了工作一样,而且大部分时间都很糟糕。我的意思是,你试着让别人来建造类似的东西(他说,当我们走在一个9米高的木结构下,这个木结构不承诺地向屏幕或广告牌上点头),他们让他们按照你想要的方式来建造它!你不会!OGR的技术团队对我们的精确性感到震惊,这是一个简单的结构,但简单性很难计算出来,我们花了很长时间寻找合适的木材,最初我打算使用旧木材,但找不到一个也足够坚固和直直直的结构,使一个如此大的结构,它是O。九米高。

L.M.: Could you tell us a little more about what this structure might represent?
L.M.:你能告诉我们更多这个结构可能代表什么吗?

M.N.: Ultimately I didn’t want the structure to be specifically anything, I wanted it to be blank, reflecting an idea of expectation. When I was asked to do an exhibition, you become known for making particularly large works and so when someone has a large space they assume that you will make a large piece of work for their large space, so I suppose there is an expectation of what you might do, there is an expectation of spectacle in relation to my own work and also in relation to this space, I think that in many ways this was aspect that I found quite complicated and slightly irritating ultimately, so I think that’s what this is about, about something that is specifically related to the art world and to me in terms of my practice but also in terms of how that relates to the wider world ultimately, this sense of expectation and the idea of waiting.
M.N.:最终,我不希望结构是特别的任何东西,我希望它是空白的,反映了一种期望的想法。当我被要求去做一个展览时,你因制作特别大的作品而出名,所以当有人有很大的空间时,他们认为你会为他们的大空间制作大量的作品,所以我想你可能会做些什么,对我自己的作品以及与之相关的作品都有一种期待。对于这个空间,我认为在很多方面,这是我最终发现相当复杂和稍微令人恼火的一个方面,所以我认为这就是我所要做的,关于与艺术世界和我的实践特别相关的事情,也就是关于最终如何与更广阔的世界相关的事情,这种期待的感觉。还有等待的想法。

L.M.: Hence the title, L’atteso?
L.M.:那么标题,L'atteso?

M.N.: Exactly and I also wanted it to sound filmic.
M.N.:没错,我也希望它听起来像电影。

L.M: Yes, I’ve heard that you were also inspired by Italian cinema in the making of this piece, especially Dario Argento’s Deep Red, set here in Turin…
L.M:是的,我听说你在创作这部作品的过程中也受到了意大利电影的启发,特别是达里奥·阿金托的深红,背景设在都灵……

M.N.: Well to begin with I was actually thinking more about Antonioni and the early films like from L’avventura, L’eclisse, Il Deserto Rosso and Blow Up, that sense of a mis-en-scene, that somehow suggests something that has happened or which is about to happen but has no answer, this idea of nothingness, in a way. The Dario Argento bit came in because I was thinking about nothingness in regard to Antonioni and thinking about the fear of the unseen in regard to Lovecraft and horror because I also think in the making of the exhibition horror has been at the back of my mind for a show here, just because I knew the show was going to be opened here on halloween and the day of the dead, I always like to coincide my shows with public festivals, particularly ones which revolve around such things! So I was thinking about the idea of the unseen in horror, then obviously Dario Argento is a product of Antonioni and well, thinking I’d been very clever, I then googled it, only to discover one of the few films I hadn’t seen, Profondo Rosso was set in Turin, which was his reaction to his irritation with Blow Up, hence his employing of David Hemmings, so yes that was kind of interesting, so I thought to channel a bit of that in Turin would be quite nice!
M.N.:首先,我想的更多的是安东尼奥尼和早期的电影,比如《阿文图拉》、《月蚀》、《伊尔·德塞托·罗索》和《爆炸》,那种错觉,某种程度上暗示了已经发生或即将发生但没有答案的事情,这种虚无的想法。达里奥·阿金托之所以出现,是因为我在考虑安东尼奥尼的虚无,在考虑爱情和恐怖方面对看不见的人的恐惧,因为我也认为在制作展览的过程中,恐怖一直在我的脑海中,因为我知道展览将在万圣节在这里开幕。在死亡之日,我总是喜欢把我的表演与公共节日相结合,特别是那些围绕着这些事情的节日!所以我在考虑恐怖中看不见的想法,很明显,达里奥·阿金托是安东尼奥尼的产物,我觉得我很聪明,然后在谷歌上搜索,结果发现了我没看过的几部电影中的一部,普罗芬多·罗索是在都灵拍摄的,这是他对自己被炸得恼火的反应,因此他雇用了大卫·赫本。嗯,是的,这有点有趣,所以我想在都灵的频道播放一点会很不错的!

L.M.: So you have spoken so far about spectacle, could you tell me about the role of the individual or the spectator in the activation of the artwork?
L.M.:你已经谈到了奇观,你能告诉我个人或观众在激活艺术品中的作用吗?

M.N: In early works I was very interested how that aggravated the reading of work, I suppose in a way it is a filmic device to leave certain things open, to suck your own history into the mix of visual material. Ultimately here it is still a similar structure to that. Here I wanted to understand how much to control the more personal aspects in the interiors of the cars in regard to the actual scale of the work, because in many ways there are a lot of different languages, genres or oeuvres of art that have passed through this piece, even when we put the hardcore down, I must admit it was very pleasing because whilst your walking across it, I love this stuff, I’ve been walking across it every day and seeing the same bits of tyres, you know that sense of the Earth Room by Walter De Maria, in terms of lying this stuff down, then you have this strange big construction and the cars on top, you end up with this quite confused lineage of art history within it.
M.N:在早期的作品中,我很感兴趣这是如何加重作品的阅读,我想在某种程度上,它是一个电影装置,让某些事物保持开放,把你自己的历史吸进视觉材料的混合中。最终,它仍然是一个类似的结构。在这里,我想了解在实际工作规模方面如何控制汽车内饰的更多个人方面,因为在许多方面,有许多不同的语言、风格或艺术作品通过这一块,即使我们放下了硬核,我必须承认这是非常愉快的,因为当你走过它的时候,我喜欢这个东西,我每天都在穿过它,看到同样的轮胎,你知道沃尔特·德·玛丽亚的《地球的感觉》,在放下这些东西的时候,你会发现这个奇怪的大建筑和车顶上的汽车,你最终会发现里面有一个相当混乱的艺术历史沿袭。

There is a certain amount of intimacy in the different objects although you can’t enter them, I mean I didn’t want people getting in and blowing horns and turning indicators on otherwise, if you don’t watch it, it becomes like a funfair! I’m more interested in the cars in their sculptural nature, these things that are still driving around on the streets…I see cars everywhere now.…if I’m perfectly honest I am getting a little sick of looking at cars, you become slightly obsessed after a while!
不同的物体有一定的亲密感,虽然你不能进入它们,我的意思是我不想让人们进去吹喇叭和打开指示灯,否则,如果你不看它,它会变成一个游乐场!我更感兴趣的是汽车的雕刻性,这些东西仍然在街上行驶……我现在到处都能看到汽车……如果我完全诚实,我有点讨厌看汽车,你会变得有点着迷过一段时间!

The Expectation of Spectacle: an Interview with Mike Nelson - 奇观的期待:对迈克纳尔逊的采访
Mike Nelson, "L'Atteso", Installation view, OGR Turin, 2018
Mike Nelson,“L'atteso”,安装视图,OGR Turin,2018年

The Expectation of Spectacle: an Interview with Mike Nelson - 奇观的期待:对迈克纳尔逊的采访
Mike Nelson, "L'Atteso", Installation view, OGR Turin, 2018
Mike Nelson,“L'atteso”,安装视图,OGR Turin,2018年

The Expectation of Spectacle: an Interview with Mike Nelson - 奇观的期待:对迈克纳尔逊的采访
Mike Nelson, "L'Atteso", Installation view, OGR Turin, 2018
Mike Nelson,“L'atteso”,安装视图,OGR Turin,2018年

The Expectation of Spectacle: an Interview with Mike Nelson - 奇观的期待:对迈克纳尔逊的采访
Mike Nelson
迈克·尼尔森

The Expectation of Spectacle: an Interview with Mike Nelson - 奇观的期待:对迈克纳尔逊的采访
Edward Kienholz, Five Car Stud, 1969–72 © Delfino Sisto Legnani Studio
Edward Kienholz,五辆车,1969–72©Delfino Sisto Legnani工作室



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